THE STARTUP CHAT

Hiten Shah: This is Hiten Shah.

 

Steli Efti: And this is Steli Efti, and in today’s episode of The Startup Chat, we will talk about friendship and business or friendship in general, friends.  So I just suggested this topic to Hiten, and he was just like friendship, friendship.  I love it.  I love it.  I don’t know what we’re gonna talk about, but let’s do it.  I love it.  So here’s why I want to talk about this or why this is something that’s on my mind right now.

 

There’s many reasons.  So two things.  1.) I think over the last few years I’ve realized – and I think I’m not alone.  This is, kind of, an age thing as I’ve built up a family and have children now and all that.  But I’ve maintained friendships that I had with people that I grew up with, although they don’t live very close by. But I try to, like, meet them a few times a year.

 

We go on a vacation together.  I just recently went on a vacation with two friends of mine for over 15 years.  I increasingly realize the value of friendship.  I increasingly realize something that I think a lot of people do in later stages in their lives which is that it’s hard to build friendship later in life like true deep friendship.  It’s easy when you’re young.

 

Hiten Shah: Hang on.

 

Steli Efti: Yes.

 

Hiten Shah: I don’t want to believe what you just said.

 

Steli Efti: All right.  We’ll talk about this in a second, but my framework here is that I think when you’re very young and you just grow up, there’s an amazing amount of time that you can devote to spending time with other people and experiencing things and figuring out who you are and building these bonds.  Later with work and family and children and things like that, the time just decreases.

 

So you meet people, but usually, the relationships and experiences and the time together is much more superficial.  It doesn’t go as deep typically.  And then talking to my mom – and we did an episode just recently about our parents – I was talking to my mom recently.  Seeing how at later stages in life, at least for her, she doesn’t have a partner.  Her children have grown out of the house.  In a few years, she’s gonna be retirement age.  And now, one of her best friends has moved back to Greece, and another friend of hers died.  And she doesn’t have enough friends, that quality friends that you want to spend time with.  So I was talking with my mother about that, about that challenge because this is one thing that’s going on.

 

And the other thing that’s going on is – and we’ve talked about this before – is a really good friend of mine starting a business with a really good friend and the challenges they have.  Another threat is, like, a guy that thought he was a really good friend with somebody, and then that person copied parts of the business.  And now, they’re really hating each other.

 

Just seeing all these threats around friendship, so it’s just something on my mind.  Like, there’s no concrete problem I have here, but it’s just something that I started thinking about a lot more and being like it’s such an important thing in life.  And it’s such an interesting topic, and let’s talk about it.  Like, that’s where I’m coming from.

 

Hiten Shah: Awesome.

 

Steli Efti: So you said the whole thing with, like, later in life it’s harder to develop really good friends.  You’re like, “I don’t want to believe that.”

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: Let’s jump right into that for a second.

 

Hiten Shah: I think it’s just part of, like, I think, self-defeating beliefs in a way, right, which is –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – like I can’t get my heart to believe that I can’t make deep, meaningful friendships later in life.  And part of it is just being inspired, right?  So my father got married at 60 again.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: I know your mother had a relationship for a while –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

Hiten Shah: – too, right? –

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – at an older age, similar thing.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: Didn’t get married.  Fine.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: And I’ve seen it.  I’ve just seen it.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: And, like, I know, like, you and I.  We didn’t grow up together.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: Right?  I consider you a friend.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: I mean, we do this thing together.  It’s –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – cool.  But, like –

 

Steli Efti: But – okay.

 

Hiten Shah: So it’s like are you sure?

 

Steli Efti: Yes.

 

Hiten Shah: Like, really?

 

Steli Efti: So let’s talk –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – about this, right?

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

Steli Efti: Because I don’t think it’s not possible.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: I think it’s very much possible.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: And when I talked to my mom, I had a whole speech on, like, 60 to –

 

Hiten Shah: A speech.

 

Steli Efti: – 60 to 90.  That’s 30 years of life.  That’s my entire existence on this planet.  This is what you have in front of you.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: Everything is possible.

 

Hiten Shah: Sure.

 

Steli Efti: And you can live a lot of fucking life in that time.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: Find friends, find a partner.

 

Hiten Shah: Whatever.

 

Steli Efti: Do whatever you want –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – right?  So I’m with you on that.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: But I do think it takes effort and investment and energy.

 

Hiten Shah: Of course.

 

Steli Efti: Right?  And I think that when you –

 

Hiten Shah: It was easier earlier?

Steli Efti: Because –

 

Hiten Shah: Just by –

 

Steli Efti: – that investment –

 

Hiten Shah: – environment.

 

Steli Efti: Just by environment because that –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – investment is not even an effort.  It’s just the way that –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – everything you do is basically just –

 

Hiten Shah: Well, once you have –

 

Steli Efti: – hang out with other people.

 

Hiten Shah: – once you have a family, your friends are your family.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: Right?  And then the other friends are other friends.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: Unless you all make the effort.  It’s great.

 

Steli Efti: And with this, with our friendship –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – I consider this a prime example for this –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – because if we didn’t create this format –

 

Hiten Shah: Oh yeah, sure.

 

Steli Efti: – we would still –

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – kind of, on a, like, I think from the first moment we felt a connection –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – right, and we felt that there’s something, kindred –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – spirits here.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: But how much would we have known about each other, how would we feel about each other if we just –

 

[Crosstalk]

 

Steli Efti: – met twice for coffee, right?

 

Hiten Shah: That’s true.

 

[Crosstalk]

 

Steli Efti: We’d be like I really like this guy, but today I can say I really consider you a friend.  And –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah, sure.

 

Steli Efti: – I feel very strongly about you –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – right, and our relationship.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: But we spent every week –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – we spend some time together.

 

Hiten Shah: That’s right.  That’s right, yeah.

 

Steli Efti: And we talk about things with each other that we don’t talk about –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – with many other people.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: So that created –

 

[Crosstalk]

 

Steli Efti: – the space.

 

Hiten Shah: [Inaudible] [00:05:34].

 

Steli Efti: Oh, absolutely.

 

Hiten Shah: Right?

 

Steli Efti: I had never used the word it’s not possible, impossible.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

Steli Efti: I said it’s hard, I think.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah, okay.

 

Steli Efti: It takes more effort.

 

Hiten Shah: I still don’t want to believe that, but I totally –

 

Steli Efti: Okay.

 

Hiten Shah: – can’t argue and give you –

 

Steli Efti: Fine.

 

Hiten Shah: – anything except I just keep trying to –

 

Steli Efti: And also, just –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

Steli Efti: – personally, there’s, like, little things that pop up.  Like, I know that when I was younger, I was socially lazy to a certain extent.  I –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – still have that where if somebody invited me to a birthday or to a wedding or to –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – something that was inconvenient for me to participate in, I’d be like ah, I don’t really –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – want to go there.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah, yeah.

 

Steli Efti: Do I really have –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah, right.

 

Steli Efti: – to do this? And then I have this one friend of mine who is an amazing example of taking friendship so serious that it doesn’t matter how inconvenient it is.  If you invite him to something –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah, he’ll –

 

Steli Efti: – he’ll show up.

 

Hiten Shah: – make it.

 

Steli Efti: Like, he doesn’t have family.  He’s –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – very young.  And I was just telling my wife yesterday the dude showed up for the last three birthdays of my children to children parties where he had to, like, take the train on a Sunday from San Francisco down, take his bike, ride for –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – like, 30 minutes, and then show up as a single with a bunch of children at a children party.  And I didn’t make a big invitation or a big fuss, and he knows that I don’t really care.  Like, I totally –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – respect him not showing up.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: But he’s like this is Steli.  He’s a friend.  His child’s birthday.  I’m showing up.  And I admire that –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah, yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – because I see –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – there we –

 

Hiten Shah: It’s awesome.  Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: And this plays into, like, this weekend a friend and somebody that worked for me is moving out.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: And he has a big party, and I don’t want to go to San Francisco Saturday night.  I don’t want to –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – go do this, like, go away party –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – because I’m lazy.

 

Hiten Shah: That’s right.

 

Steli Efti: But I’m like I want to invest more time in these relationships.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: And I admire people that do.  So –

Hiten Shah: I hear you.

 

Steli Efti: – let’s switch for a second on the –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – track here and talk about friendship within business.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: So we know that business is a lot about, like, personal relationships.  I’m very good friends with everybody that works here; but with my cofounders, they’re some of my very best friends.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: So there’s a lot of benefit in having strong personal relationships and not just pure business relationships with people.  But there’s also complexity that comes with that, right?

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: Maybe if you just work with somebody on a business level, you’re much more rational when you make a decision to let them go if they don’t perform, right?

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: And somebody who’s a really good friend of yours –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – harder to do, harder to pull off.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: We could be really good friends, and we share all the information.  All of the sudden –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – you move into a competitive space of mine.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

Steli Efti: What does that mean?  Did you betray –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – me?  How do you think about friendship and business both in, like, hiring people –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – cofounding with people, or just having friends that run other businesses that today are not competitive but tomorrow could be?

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: Like, how do you think about that?  Have you ever thought about that?  Let’s talk about the friendship and business aspect specifically.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah, and I think if you’re doing business long enough, you have to think about it.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah, I had an interesting thing happen recently.  So we are a very small product and engineering team at Quick Sprout, just like five people.  Do I count myself in that?  I don’t count myself in that currently.

 

Steli Efti: Okay.

 

Hiten Shah: And one person left.  He decided he didn’t want to continue, and it’s a really small team.  And I had a realization.  There’s only one other person left like him on the team that I can say I’m not their friend.

 

Steli Efti: Hum.

 

Hiten Shah: Like, not that I am their friend or I’m –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – not.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah, yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: But, like, I’m no their friend.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: We don’t know each other that well.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: The person joined for the other people on the team, so I actually talked to him yesterday for 30 minutes.  And I’m like I don’t know you.  The other guy left.  I didn’t know him either.  I –

 

Steli Efti: Ah.

 

Hiten Shah: – should know you huh?

 

[Crosstalk]

 

Hiten Shah: He’s like yeah, yeah.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: So I was like all right.  So he asked a bunch of questions.  I gave him some context, and I already like him.  That wasn’t the problem.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: I’m sure he likes me, right?  I hope.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: And we’re a distributed team, so we –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – don’t see each other.  And I didn’t even talk to him before he got hired in this case, right, or joined the team.  And so that hit me pretty hard just the last two weeks, right, because somebody left, and, like, I didn’t know why.  And if somebody leaves a team that I’m on, a company that’s essentially something I started and I’m running, like, I want to know why.  And if they’re not my friend, I can’t find out.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

Hiten Shah: So I feel like that, right?

 

Steli Efti: Right.

 

Hiten Shah: So I think parts of what you said are totally the same thing here.  I do consider Neal one of my best friends for sure.  I have friends that, like, we were born within six months, and I’ve lived with the person, like, multiple times, like, in college and stuff like that.  A friend is a really interesting thing, and I’m just diving into it –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah, yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – because, like, I think you sparked something interesting there.  I have a friend that, like, I used to go to him, and this is a dear friend.  I used to go to him and be like yo.  I hung out with this person, blah, blah, blah.  We’ve known each other a while but hung out in person.  And oh, they’re a good friend.  He’s like, “No, they’re not.  He’s like, “Just wait for a couple more times before you say that.”

 

Steli Efti: Before you say that, yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: Because he really considers a good friend like very few.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: So –

 

Steli Efti: I agree with you.

 

Hiten Shah: – I wanted to throw all that, I mean –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah, yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – because that’s a lot of interesting stuff because friend’s an interesting word.

 

Steli Efti: Friend is an interesting –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – word.  I mean, also, not to make this even more complicated, but I think culturally the word means different things, right?  So –

 

Hiten Shah: Absolutely.

Steli Efti: – I know for a fact, like, in a country like Germany, the word friend is used a lot more carefully than in a place like California where –

 

Hiten Shah: So he’s more of the German mentality.

 

Steli Efti: Probably.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

[Crosstalk]

 

Steli Efti: But I do agree that, like, I do make differences.  Like, I can say this is somebody that’s a friend.  But good friend or – I might even use the same word but feel differently about people.  There are people –

 

Hiten Shah: Makes sense.

 

Steli Efti: – right?

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: So there are people that I would help a lot, and then there’s people that I would cut my arm off for, right?

 

Hiten Shah: Yes, that’s good.

 

Steli Efti: And there’s a big difference.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: And also, for most people that would say I’m a friend of theirs or they’re a friend of mine, I don’t expect too much.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: Like, maybe that’s because I’m a super skeptical person in general, but I am like I’m gonna help you.  But I don’t necessarily bank on you needing to help me.  So there’s only very few people that I’m like I would bank on this person helping me, like, if I’m in real trouble which to me the definition is I am in real deep shit.  And you have to get in some shit yourself to help me get out of it.  Like, it’s not super easy for you to do without getting into some trouble yourself or some issues or some inconveniences.  Some people would only call people friends that would get into trouble to help them, or where they feel like I could tell you anything.  I can completely trust you.  You would never betray my trust, or you would always help me no matter what it is.

 

I think that’s also tricky framework to be honest because I do believe that if you have that framework where you’re like if I’m in real deep trouble and you’re a really good friend of mine, you need to come and get into real deep trouble to help me.  And then if you don’t, I feel really betrayed.  I feel like people –

 

Hiten Shah: I don’t know if that’s a real friend.

 

Steli Efti: Who of the two?  No, now –

 

Hiten Shah: The one who would demand it.

 

Steli Efti: So –

 

Hiten Shah: That’s just my opinion –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – because I would never demand it of anyone.  But I know who to ask.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: And they’ll just be there.

 

Steli Efti: Yes.

 

Hiten Shah: Not by me demanding it.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: Because they’ve done it before –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – or I just know their level of commitment to that part of the relationship, which is like the shitty part.  But I say that because, like, I’m the person where I don’t care if you say no to me if I ask you for something.  But, like, it’s very likely you’re not gonna say no because I’m not –

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – gonna ask –

 

Steli Efti: Ask if –

 

Hiten Shah: – that often.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: So that’s one part of it.  I think another part of it is, like, yeah, I have friends where I know, like, they’ll fly here and help me with a bad situation because we’ve helped each other.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: Like, and we’ve just done that, and maybe it was in college or something like that, right?

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: And so I think that’s super interesting, the cut your arm off stuff.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: And I think that’s the person, but, like, you can’t demand someone to cut their arm off for you.

 

Steli Efti: That’s it.

 

Hiten Shah: That’s, like, indentured servitude, or, like, you’re the king or something, right?  And I think that’s where friendship goes wrong.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah, and I think that’s a lot of times where people go I hate this person.  We were friends, and then he –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – he deeply disappointed me because I needed this person.  And they weren’t there for me, or I trusted them with something.  And they betrayed the trust.  And so it’s a tricky thing, right?  You’re investing in something, but I do believe that if you then expect something back or you demand it, you’re a shitty friend yourself.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

Steli Efti: It’s something that just naturally either grows, or it doesn’t.  But I think a lot of times people feel a certain way about somebody else, and then they demand and need that other person to act in a very specific way at all situations.  And if they don’t, they feel very, very hurt, which is a very interesting thing.  So let’s talk about us two real quick –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah, yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – in the business context, right?  So we’re friends.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: How long do we really know each other?  We know each other for, like, a year and a half –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – something like that, right?

 

Hiten Shah: That’s reason one.

 

Steli Efti: So how many problems would you come to me with?

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: What is the expectation what you would believe I would do for you or not do for you?

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah, sure, yeah.

 

Steli Efti: Like, where do you rank me as a friend?

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: And how did –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – you get there?

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.  So I don’t like ranking people –

 

Steli Efti: All right.

 

Hiten Shah: – because I don’t really like competition, all right?

 

Steli Efti: Might have been a bad word, right? Like –

 

Hiten Shah: No, no, it’s fine.

 

Steli Efti: – how do you feel –

 

Hiten Shah: It doesn’t matter.

 

Steli Efti: – think about it?

 

Hiten Shah: I think most things that are, kind of, from a physical presence standpoint I don’t expect from any friend or anybody because I won’t necessarily do that for them, right, like –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – don’t have physical presence if they’re really far away.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah, yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: I’m just baselining, right?

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: But, like, I think I can come and talk to you about any hard problem I have regardless if it’s personal or business.  I think you’ll give me the kind of thoughts that will help me.

 

Steli Efti: Hum.

 

Hiten Shah: Right?  I don’t really have that many people like that.

 

Steli Efti: Hum.

 

Hiten Shah: It’s probably five to ten at most, right?

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: So I’d put you in that bucket if that’s even a bucket.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: Right?

Steli Efti: All right.  Well –

 

Hiten Shah: That’s like for anything.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: Then there’s certain people I’ll go to business contacts –

 

[Crosstalk]

 

Hiten Shah: – and I know they’ll help, or personal –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – contacts.  And it –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – doesn’t matter.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: Right?  Like, my father I’ll go for personal any day.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: Business sometimes, right?

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.  That’s interesting.  So that’s definitely something that I feel similar about.  Here’s an interesting –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – situation, right, because we talk about friendship and developing –

 

Hiten Shah: Sure, yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – friendship.  Our context has been fairly limited because –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – it’s mostly living without the recording of this podcast, right?

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah, that’s right.

Steli Efti: There’s gonna be a conference here and there.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: Today we’re going out for lunch –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – which even that is something we –

 

Hiten Shah: Super rare.

 

Steli Efti: – don’t do.  Yeah, rare.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: But because the chemistry is so strong because –

 

Hiten Shah: Right.

 

Steli Efti: – we had a lot of good conversations, there’s a lot of trust there.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: But as long as that trust in my world – like, I trust to talk to you about a –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – lot of things.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: But I don’t expect necessarily that you would never tell any of these things to somebody else even if I told you –

 

Hiten Shah: Sure.

 

Steli Efti: – because –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – I don’t know.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

Steli Efti: Like, we haven’t been put in that context –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – before.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: Or I don’t –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – I don’t feel, like, if you had a real personal issue –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – would you come to me?  I don’t know.

 

Hiten Shah: Sure.

 

Steli Efti: I mean, I’d hope so, but I don’t expect it necessarily –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah, right.

 

Steli Efti: – because we haven’t had that context.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah, right.

 

Steli Efti: So the question is how do you build that context at this late –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – stage in –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – life because you already have the people that you would go with –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – these deep, personal problems that you had these upbringings with –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

Steli Efti: – and the situations?  So you tend to go back to the same people.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: You don’t tend to include new people into that circle.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: That’s interesting.  Okay, so how deep can a new friendship really develop if they’re excluded from certain scenarios just by history and by that you have a group of people that you go with these things to?  And you don’t necessarily need to add more, more, more, and more people to this list.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah, that’s an interesting thought because I think now, this would get into probably your own personality, not yours but –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – everybody’s –

 

Steli Efti: People’s, yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – right?  And how they want to treat their friendships on that level, right?  So, like, for me I try not to have expectations of anybody really –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – right?  So then I would rate it on potential.  This is all on the unemotional side let’s just say, right?

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: So it’s almost like a likelihood, so what’s the likelihood that Steli is gonna add value to what I’m gonna ask him about?  And so even if you’re in a bucket of ten people, there’s probably a whole line of people there, right, that I would go to first just based on likelihood that they would be helpful.  Now, that also means are they available?  Am I bothering them, right?  But all these are the things that go through my mind because –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – I’m constantly just thinking about people –

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – and my level of helpfulness versus my level of neediness.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: I think friendships are that, helpfulness, neediness, some scale of that, right, and the balance of that because some people can call me about anything.  And even if it sounds needy or something, I’ll entertain them because they’re never needy –

 

Steli Efti: How do you –

 

Hiten Shah: – right, for example.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah, yeah.  So how do you think about this in the context of hiring people?  I know there’s people that –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – say never hire friends or family –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – right, because it overcomplicates –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – things.  I’ve definitely hired – not family.  I’ve cofounded with my brother something, but I’ve never hired family –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – to work for me.  But –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – I’ve worked with lots of friends.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: And my personal opinion is that it does add some level of comple – it has some –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

Steli Efti: – benefits, and it has some downsides.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: But I had to fire –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – childhood friends.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: And we figured out a way to get back –

 

Hiten Shah: That’s right.

 

Steli Efti: – and find a way –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – if you do it right.

 

Hiten Shah: That’s right.

 

Steli Efti: If you do it for the right reasons.  So I’m not like a hardliner and –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – never hire somebody that you’re friends with, but I know a lot of people are in business.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: How do you feel about that?

 

Hiten Shah: I mean, we’ve been talking about our expectation a lot, so I just set it up front.  I think that’s the right thing to do when someone’s joining a team that you’re running, right.  Just set the expectation.  Say hey, look.  We’re friends.  That’s why you’re even here, right?  And I’ll say it like that, right, because, like, we’re friends.  But, like, you’re just like anybody else that would come and has to do the work.  You’re here though because I think you can do it better than other people –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

Hiten Shah: – right?  Those are the exact conversation I had had, right?  And so yeah, let’s go, but the expectation is you’re gonna be a team member.  And if it doesn’t work out, like, we still want to be friends, right?  And then that’s it.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: So I think that where the failure comes – and this is just constant for me – is, like, when I don’t set that expectation with the other person or they don’t.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: And I don’t expect anyone to anymore, and I’ll just set it.

 

Steli Efti: Have you ever fired a friend that was not taking it well even when you set the expectations right?

 

Hiten Shah: I’ve been lucky enough not to –

 

Steli Efti: Okay.

 

Hiten Shah: – have to deal with that because there’s usually a thread, or it’s usually just overly respectful to them.

 

Steli Efti: Okay.

 

Hiten Shah: Even, like, with hires that I should have just let go earlier, I’d probably go on the overly respectful side –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – in hindsight.  And now, I’d probably not be as nice about it.  Nice meaning overly nice like without discussing it.  I’d just be like hey, this is what’s up and try to be more direct now because what I really believe is if somebody is not right on the team for whatever reason, culture or hustle or whatever you want to call it, there’s a better team for them.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: And they shouldn’t waste their –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – time either.

 

Steli Efti: Right.

 

Hiten Shah: And, like, at this point, like, I’d rather go introduce them to somebody –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – right, and say hey, look.  They didn’t work out on our team.  Here’s why we hired him.  Here’s what I think they’re great at, and here’s what I know about him.  They might be better at your culture or your team –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah, yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – right, or maybe some people go into contract roles after they leave companies for a bit.  That’s just been a trend lately –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – because there’s just a lot of temporary work too now.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: And so I think there’s a lot of options.  But for me it’s just like yeah, I don’t care who you are.  Like, if you’re on the team and it’s not working out, like, let’s move on.

 

Steli Efti: Do you feel if you have cofounders, you need to be friends with them?  Would you say that, or do you say being friends with your cofounders is important?  Is it crucial, is it important, or is it nice to have, or is it even bad?  Like, what’s your thinking on that?

 

Hiten Shah: I don’t know because, like, everyone has a different definition of friends –

 

Steli Efti: Friends, yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – right?  Like, I consider Neal one of my best friends, but, like, I don’t know if he’d say that, right.  And it, kinda, doesn’t matter because he’s my brother-in-law.  But, like, without him, I can’t get a lot of the things I want done in life just straight up, right?  And so just like without my wife.  So I treat him like family.  He’s actually family, right?  And so that’s probably a weird one, but in general, like, I think trust is more important than friendship.  How about that?

 

Steli Efti: Hum, I like that.

 

Hiten Shah: Because even in business, like, if I can trust you, I’m good.  I don’t need to be your friend.  And oftentimes, like, someone who you think I wouldn’t trust I will.  You know why?  I know what to expect.  They know what to expect, and –

 

Steli Efti: Ah.

 

Hiten Shah: – we know how to treat each other.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: And my worst has been when, like, I’ve had friends that have, in some form another, done something that has hurt me in business.  But, like, at the end of the day, like, now I know.  That’s the way I look at it.  And whether they’re a friend of not, that’s cool.  And my dad gave me some of the best advice.  He’s just like look, that person just don’t talk to them about business anymore.  If you want to go hang out with them, go for it.  Don’t talk about business with that person –

 

Steli Efti: Hum.

 

Hiten Shah: – anymore.  Now you know.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: But, like, they can still be your friend.  That’s messed up if you don’t consider them a friend even though they did that because they’re just doing it for their own business reasons.

 

Steli Efti: I like that.  I like the trust aspect.  Trust being –

 

Hiten Shah: Screwing somebody out of money though, which is essentially the drawing of the line there of, like, they copied my features.  I’ve known them, or they entered my market.  Dude, like, everyone’s screwing each other out of money.  Like, there’s not that much money out there.  I’m just saying, right?  So I had to internalize this because I had all the emotions around this –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah, yeah.

Hiten Shah: – actually just a couple years ago.

 

Steli Efti: That’s interesting.  One framework that I’ve used is – trust is one really crucial thing.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: And then the other one is can I respect you.  So –

 

Hiten Shah: Sure.

 

Steli Efti: – I might not like you, but I respect you, right?

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: So that can make a big difference –

 

Hiten Shah: Can you trust someone without respecting them?  Do you respect someone without trusting them?  I’m just not sure, and I think that’s gonna hit personality for me.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah, yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: For me if I don’t respect you, it’s gonna be hard for me to trust you.

 

Steli Efti: To trust you, yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: But my framework of respect might be different than other people.

 

Steli Efti: No, I –

 

Hiten Shah: Like, I might not agree with what –

 

Steli Efti: – I do –

 

Hiten Shah: – you’re doing, but I understand.

 

Steli Efti: – I do –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – agree with that because the way that I would define who I respect is somebody that acts congruently –

 

Hiten Shah: Right.

 

Steli Efti: – right?  So –

 

Hiten Shah: Predictably –

 

Steli Efti: – predictably –

 

Hiten Shah: – aligned with their values.

 

Steli Efti: Yes.

 

Hiten Shah: Whatever their values are –

 

Steli Efti: So –

 

Hiten Shah: – whether you agree or not?

 

Steli Efti: Yes, yes.  So –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: It’s the, like, do to others like you want to be done unto yourself.  If somebody’s an asshole to me in a –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – certain way but if I treat him the same way in that area, he’s totally cool with it –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – I have no problem with that person.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah baby, yeah.

 

Steli Efti: I’m like I may choose to be around you or not –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – but I am totally cool.

 

Hiten Shah: Respect.

 

Steli Efti: I totally respect you –

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – right?

 

Hiten Shah: I have people like that, yeah, [inaudible] [00:24:52].

 

Steli Efti: So there’s people like that because I’m like they act congruently within their value system, right?

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah, you know what to expect.

 

Steli Efti: Yes.  And not just to expect some people –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – will be consistently an asshole –

 

Hiten Shah: Sure.

 

Steli Efti: – or difficult, but you can’t be the same way back to them –

 

Hiten Shah: No.

 

Steli Efti: – right?  So I can’t respect you if you’re –

 

Hiten Shah: Interesting.

 

Steli Efti: – like that, right?

 

Hiten Shah: Interesting.

 

Steli Efti: To me my framework is –

 

Hiten Shah: If you can’t take what you dish –

 

Steli Efti: If you can’t take what you dish, then I can’t hang with you.  And I can’t –

 

[Crosstalk]

 

Steli Efti: – respect you.  Like, there’s people that I’m friends with that I know this person’s gonna be a huge asshole in my definition of the world in a specific aspect.  I still love them.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

Steli Efti: Because in that aspect, like, I just don’t go there with them.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: But I know –

 

Hiten Shah: I’m like that too.

 

Steli Efti: – I know –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – and I’ve tested.  If I do the exact same thing to them, they’re totally fine with it.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: So I’m like all right.  This is just the way this person works in this.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: And we’re different.  But if you can’t take what you dish, then to me you’re not congruent.  Then to me it means, like, you knew you were an asshole to me.  It’s not just who you are and what you’re like.  It’s you being bad to me and not wanting other people to be like that to you.  Fuck you.  Then I can’t respect you.  So to me that makes a big different.  If people –

 

Hiten Shah: That’s sociopath psychopath status.

 

Steli Efti: I don’t know.

 

Hiten Shah: Just letting you know if you read up on all that stuff –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah, yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – basically –

 

Steli Efti: It could be.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah, and I think –

 

Hiten Shah: And not understanding empathy properly.

Steli Efti: Yeah, but –

 

[Crosstalk]

 

Steli Efti: – but also, like, people’s interpretation of what is acceptable and what’s not.

 

Hiten Shah: Sure.

 

Steli Efti: Like, I grew up with a very strong framework with what’s acceptable and not and what’s good behavior and bad behavior.  So it was very judgmental.

 

Hiten Shah: Sure, yeah.

 

Steli Efti: So –

 

Hiten Shah: Everyone grew up judgmental one way or another, right?

 

Steli Efti: Right, one way or another.

 

Hiten Shah: Either it was their judgment or someone else’s.

 

Steli Efti: But they don’t –

 

Hiten Shah: Just children, teenagers like wow.  Emotions.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: I’m sorry.

 

Steli Efti: But – no.  But learning to judge on a different scale, which is not –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – do you fit into –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – good or bad of my –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – framework.  But –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – learning what is your framework.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: And then –

 

Hiten Shah: Absolutely.

 

Steli Efti: – is your framework congruent in your world view, and then I can deal with that –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – versus no.  We have the same framework.  You’re just being an ass to me, right?

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: You wouldn’t like the same behavior back.

 

Hiten Shah: Nope.

 

Steli Efti: That is something I can’t deal with, right, and I can’t respect you.

 

Hiten Shah: Well, that’s what makes me want to do it more to you, so yeah.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: You can’t handle it?  Let’s go.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: So that’s like with trolling somebody, right?

 

Steli Efti: There you go.  There you go.  Okay, I don’t know where we’re going with this, but this is –

 

Hiten Shah: No, we’re good.

 

Steli Efti: – just an interesting –

 

Hiten Shah: It’s about friendship.  It’s all about friendship.

 

Steli Efti: It’s friendship, right?  So let’s do one more level before we wrap up this episode –

 

[Crosstalk]

 

Steli Efti: – which is we talked a little bit about employees, a little bit about friendship in general –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – employees, coworkers.  Let’s talk about friendship with other business owners and founders, right.  On the one hand, you want these type of people as friends.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: And you probably will have some of them –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – because there’s so many interests that are aligned.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah, yeah.

 

Steli Efti: So many problems that are similar.  So these are people that understand you, so –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – by default these are the people that you’re gonna gravitate towards –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – more and have more to talk about.  But once in a while, that means that – and we talked about this.  Once in a while, that means that they might share some of your secrets.  They know other people.  Like, the knowledge you share with them they could do something with that, right?

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah, totally.

 

Steli Efti: Versus, like, I have friends that have nothing to do with business.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

Steli Efti: If I tell them things about my company, there’s nothing they can do with it other than –

 

Hiten Shah: That’s right.

 

Steli Efti: – listening to me –

 

Hiten Shah: That’s right.

 

Steli Efti: – and giving me advice.

 

Hiten Shah: Sure.

 

Steli Efti: But then there’s other people if I do to lunch or dinner with somebody –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – and tell them something very secret, they could –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – share this with somebody I don’t want them –

 

Hiten Shah: Absolutely.

 

Steli Efti: – to know.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: They could use that knowledge in some bad way.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: So there’s more consequences of the information I share.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: How do you feel about that?  Are you, like, okay, I have lots of business friends that are founders, and I’ll share a lot of things with them but to a certain degree.  Everything that could –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah, for –

 

Steli Efti: – harm me, I’m not gonna share.

Hiten Shah: – for me, like, I’m overly respectful not on that side but more to my team.

 

Steli Efti: Hum.

 

Hiten Shah: So we have a team.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: Cofounders, there’s founding team, there’s stuff like that.  And some people are more private than others on the team.  And so –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – I try to be reflective of the cultures –

 

Steli Efti: Hum.

 

Hiten Shah: – right?  That’s probably the simplest way I can, kind of, explain how I think about it when it comes to sharing information about something that I’m not the only owner in.  The company owns that information not me, and what’s our policy?

 

Steli Efti: Hum.

 

Hiten Shah: I don’t mean policy.  I mean, just what’s our fucking policy.  For example at Crazy Eight, we will not tell anyone our revenue.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: Period.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: But we have a partner who probably wouldn’t appreciate that at all.

 

Steli Efti: So you don’t do it, yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: No.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: And we probably wouldn’t appreciate it either to be honest.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

Hiten Shah: But I respect him.  He’s very private, and that’s cool –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – right?  And then at Quick Sprout, we’ve entertained sharing everything and not, and that’s the brand, whatever we share because we probably end up sharing everything.  We just don’t know what it’s gonna look like –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – because we’ve got different problems to worry about not about sharing our crap, right?  So –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – like, I don’t know.  I think this is very interesting.  But to me it just goes back to the team and respecting that side of my life or those people.  And that sort of prevents me from sharing oftentimes.  At least that’s how I think about it.  So I’m less worried about my friendship with a person and where they’re gonna tell somebody and more about being respectful to the company as an organization.

 

But what’s interesting about some of these things is, like, if you’re a public company, all this stuff’s shared.  And then there’s a company I’m an advisor, and buffer, and investor.  And, like, they share everything.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: But you can never share everything –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – unless someone’s on the team.  Then they don’t even know everything.  So it’s very interesting, this transparency thing –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – because I think it goes back to that.  But that’s where my head goes when you talk about this.  I’m like most stuff’s already out there.

 

Steli Efti: Yeah, yeah.

Hiten Shah: Right?  And these days even if someone knows your little business’s revenue, it doesn’t mean anything –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – because most of the stuff can be figured out from the outside, right?

 

Steli Efti: I love that.  We even had –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – an episode on transparency I think.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: And we talked about that trend and how we think about that, so I think that’s a super interesting trend.  All right, let’s end up with some tips.

 

Hiten Shah: Sounds good.

 

Steli Efti: And I think this is such a great topic or episode for the Facebook group and having a discussion about it.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: So we’re super interested to hear your thoughts on friendship, friendship –

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: – and business.  And if you’re not already part of the Facebook group, go to the startupchat.com/fb for Facebook, and join it.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah.

 

Steli Efti: But here’s my tip or final thought on this for this episode.  If you’re a founder – especially when you’re younger and, kind of, your startup, your business is all consuming.  It’s all you think about.  It’s your whole life – don’t forget the people around you.  Don’t forget the people that you grew up with.  Don’t forget to invest and cultivate relationships with other people because at the end of the day through your entire life, your businesses are gonna be a collection of people.  The quality of your life will dramatically depend on the quality of people around you and the quality of relationships that you have with those people.  So the most important thing in life is investing in relationships and surrounding yourself with the right type of people.  And I think that a lot of people – this might not be most of the crowd that listens to this podcast, but a lot of people that I see in Silicon Valley, like, are overly ambitious, overly sharp and smart, overly aggressive and young.

 

And all that they tend to, like, put their ambition for the company above thinking about the people and relationship with their friends and cultivating friendship.  And I think that’s a very short sided way of building a business and creating a life, so just constantly invest in the people and the quality of your relationship with people around you.

 

Hiten Shah: Yeah, I like it.  My tip’s in a tweet.  It’s the one I have pinned, and it’s on Twitter.  And it’s surround yourself with people who want you to succeed.  And I think that’s my tip, and I’m gonna go a little deeper.  But, like, we all want to be successful.  In a lot of the scenarios in business when a friend betrays you, it has to do with this idea that they are preventing your success or they are hurting your success or they are putting a blocker to your success, right?  Like –

 

Steli Efti: Yeah.

 

Hiten Shah: – they copied me or they learned about my business and then invested in another one or whatever the hell is going through your head, right?  And so I think that, like, all you’re doing in friendship relationships where there’s a lot of business contacts – whatever that means, right – is you’re trying to prevent failure on your business in trying to make it successful.

 

And anytime anything gets in the way of that, you have a problem, right?  So to me it’s just tuning of who I want around me in that context.  And so that’s one of the reasons I gave the tip, but that can work in your personal life too.  There are people that will work against what you want.  There are just people like that.  And you might be considering them your friends right now, right?  And then you find out.  So the key there is, like, finding out before it hurts.  That’s my tip.

 

Steli Efti: All right.  I like it.  That’s it from us for this episode. We’ll hear you guys very soon.

Hiten Shah: Bye.

 

[End of Audio]

 

Duration: 34 minutes